A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
To hear more about how Pete Hegseth is unlike past Defense secretaries, we turn to someone who's done the job. Leon Panetta led the Pentagon in the Obama administration after also leading the CIA. Earlier, he was chief of staff in the Clinton White House. He's an observer of the Iran war who knows what it takes to plan for military action.
LEON PANETTA: It's been a war, frankly, that has always lacked a clear objective, a clear strategy and obviously a clear end game. You know, I guess my biggest concern is that with the regime remaining in place, whatever we've done in this war, ultimately, it's likely that Iran will then come back again and that we may very well face another war in the future.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, Secretary Panetta, I know at the CIA and as secretary of Defense, you had battle plans for Iran in a desk drawer for years. Wondering how what you've seen so far compares to the plans that you had at your fingertips?
PANETTA: Well, it struck me as very different in this administration that they would conduct a war with Iran without recognizing that one of the first consequences would be that Iran would close the Straits of Hormuz. The fact that the president was surprised by that, the fact that everybody seemed to be surprised by that, it strikes me that that would be the very first issue to be considered. That didn't happen here. And we've paid a very heavy price as a result of that.
MARTÍNEZ: So your battle plans that you had, did that factor in? Did you have that in mind, control of the Strait of Hormuz?
PANETTA: There was no question. That was all in the preplans dealing with Iran.
MARTÍNEZ: Would that have been on you as secretary of Defense to bring that to the president, ultimately?
PANETTA: Absolutely. It's for that reason it just strikes me as just unacceptable, when you're putting our men and women in harm's way, not to have recognized that one of the danger points would be the closure of the Straits of Hormuz.
MARTÍNEZ: We've heard Secretary Hegseth emphasize lethality, the military's ability to kill, and also argue for the need to free the war fighter from the bureaucracy of the Pentagon. What do you make of that sentiment?
PANETTA: My response to that is that our military is the strongest military on the face of the Earth. We are not only respected for our strength, we're also respected because we abide by the rules of combat. And how we conduct ourselves in battle is equally important to our ability to go after the enemy.
MARTÍNEZ: I also want to get your take on how Secretary Hegseth talks about religion. He said, quote, "the providence of our almighty God" protects our troops. And he also has asked Americans to pray for soldiers, quote, "in the name of Jesus Christ." How does it strike you to hear a Defense secretary say those things?
PANETTA: My reaction is, we all have our religious beliefs. But the idea that you would then impose your faith on others and make a decision that somehow God is on your side, and that everything about a particular operation relates somehow to our religious faith - what that does is it introduces an element in which young soldiers and the military, who are committed to fighting this war and putting their lives on the line, it confuses the mission by introducing that element.
MARTÍNEZ: What do you think it says when the secretary fired the Army chief of staff and two other generals earlier this month? What does that say to you?
PANETTA: I believe our military commanders are the finest in the world. I am concerned. When people who have that background, who have that experience, who have that combat experience, when they're dismissed for whatever reason - I'm not sure what the reasons were here. But what happens is that sends a terrible message to our other military commanders that they may not be worth much. I don't think you ought to mess with that.
MARTÍNEZ: It's said that an essential part of the job of White House chief of staff is to say no to the president. You have served in both roles. Should the Defense secretary also be ready to say no to the president of the United States?
PANETTA: I think the secretary has a responsibility. If he thinks that the president is about to make a mistake that could cost the lives of men and women in uniform, he has a responsibility to inform the president of his concerns.
MARTÍNEZ: That is former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta. Secretary, thank you very much for your thoughts.
PANETTA: Good to be with you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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